Advancing the art. your thoughts.

In your opinions, what are the best ways of advancing the art of magic? Is it through performance? Through intelligent discussion? Seeing who has the most subscribers on youtube? I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe, just maybe we can see an improvement.

tally-ho wrote:

In your opinions, what are the best ways of advancing the art of magic? Is it through performance? Through intelligent discussion? Seeing who has the most subscribers on youtube? I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe, just maybe we can see an improvement.

I have more twitter followers than you!


But no really, i dont see the point of this. The advancment of the art is done mainly through our minds and since there are so much different characters and styles you cant say that, "We will advance it that way". The art will move by itself if there are enough people to advance them selves. We shouldnt sit in a dark room corner and think our asses off, stop thinking of everyone else and start thinking of yourself. Make up what your vision is for YOUR magic not what the general way of doing things is.

So my reply, lets not advance the art for everyone lets advance it for ourselves and it will finally come to all of us.

Mikk

madman wrote:

tally-ho wrote:

In your opinions, what are the best ways of advancing the art of magic? Is it through performance? Through intelligent discussion? Seeing who has the most subscribers on youtube? I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe, just maybe we can see an improvement.

I have more twitter followers than you!


But no really, i dont see the point of this. The advancment of the art is done mainly through our minds and since there are so much different characters and styles you cant say that, "We will advance it that way". The art will move by itself if there are enough people to advance them selves. We shouldnt sit in a dark room corner and think our asses off, stop thinking of everyone else and start thinking of yourself. Make up what your vision is for YOUR magic not what the general way of doing things is.

So my reply, lets not advance the art for everyone lets advance it for ourselves and it will finally come to all of us.

Mikk

So, you're saying, why bother? I'll let someone else fix this for me? I believe that there are many more productive ways of advancing the art.

madman wrote:

tally-ho wrote:

In your opinions, what are the best ways of advancing the art of magic? Is it through performance? Through intelligent discussion? Seeing who has the most subscribers on youtube? I'd love to hear your thoughts and maybe, just maybe we can see an improvement.

I have more twitter followers than you!


But no really, i dont see the point of this. The advancment of the art is done mainly through our minds and since there are so much different characters and styles you cant say that, "We will advance it that way". The art will move by itself if there are enough people to advance them selves. We shouldnt sit in a dark room corner and think our asses off, stop thinking of everyone else and start thinking of yourself. Make up what your vision is for YOUR magic not what the general way of doing things is.

So my reply, lets not advance the art for everyone lets advance it for ourselves and it will finally come to all of us.

Mikk

Here lies the problem...

Not many people are willing to advance themselves. So many people think that magic is just fine where it is, and I think that magic, like all art forms, is never fine where it is. It should keep on advancing in whatever way it can. People are not going to just advance themselves, they need to know how, magic isn't moving as an art form and that is because people think this is all there is to magic, little tricks that make you cooler and can be obtained if you care to spend enough money on them...Or have access to youtube...




-demon5

I think it needs to be a mix of discussion and creativity. I mean alot can be done by one person, but more often than not, when another person becomes involved it works to make things better. I do not think internet forums advance the art as much as they advance the indivudual.

I think the definition can be found in one of two places. Neither place is right nor wrong, but simply a persepective. It can lie in either the creation of magic that is incredible, or the performace of magic that is also incredible. Where does the advancement really take place? In the creation of an effect, or in the performance of said effect?

I say both. You can create all you want, but if noone ever sees it then who cares. And if all you do is one trick all your life, no matter how good it is, it is only going to go so far to entertain people.

Both engines have to be running equally to really makes things better.

Honestly I think the internet is a large part of the problem. There are many good things that the internet improves magic-wise. However, it's also such a downfall. A beginner for example, has no idea what is and isn't legitimate information on the web. They have no idea that they should be starting with basic books, not learning the pass from Youtube and pirating E DVD's.

Magic forums are also chock-full of stupidity. It's one of the reasons I've been debating leaving the t11 forums for awhile. The problem is that I have many friends on there that I enjoy talking to because they actually have some maturity and common sense.
It's difficult for me to pinpoint exactly what the problem is.

The internet is one of the main reasons why the art is and is not advancing.

We also need to stop relying completely on the effect. Magic is marketed so heavily nowadays. It's changing the whole concept of an effect. People are buying magic to "add to their repertoire". It's almost like eating at a chinese buffet where people are simply adding pre-cooked food to their plate. We need to PERFORM an effect with PRESENTATION and not just let the trick carry ourselves.


....*sigh*



[END RANT]

CardClip928 wrote:

Honestly I think the internet is a large part of the problem. There are many good things that the internet improves magic-wise. However, it's also such a downfall. A beginner for example, has no idea what is and isn't legitimate information on the web. They have no idea that they should be starting with basic books, not learning the pass from Youtube and pirating E DVD's.

Magic forums are also chock-full of stupidity. It's one of the reasons I've been debating leaving the t11 forums for awhile. The problem is that I have many friends on there that I enjoy talking to because they actually have some maturity and common sense.
It's difficult for me to pinpoint exactly what the problem is.

The internet is one of the main reasons why the art is and is not advancing.

We also need to stop relying completely on the effect. Magic is marketed so heavily nowadays. It's changing the whole concept of an effect. People are buying magic to "add to their repertoire". It's almost like eating at a chinese buffet where people are simply adding pre-cooked food to their plate. We need to PERFORM an effect with PRESENTATION and not just let the trick carry ourselves.


....*sigh*



[END RANT]

I agree. The internet brings much shame to many arts.

But how do we stop it? How can there be a massive switch in education that betters the future?

Faust wrote:

But how do we stop it? How can there be a massive switch in education that betters the future?

That is the million dollar question my friend.

The first thing that comes to mind is there can't be a massive switch. It's downright impossible to get everyone to agree with you in an instant. It has to happen gradually. I think that's what Theory11 was trying to do. I used to be an E freak in the beginning. I think most of us were. But the more I posts I read from members such as Steerpike and Toyrobot, the more I realized what was really going on. Unfortunately, those wise posts are being buried in deeper and deeper shit these newer guys are posting.

Gandhi said to be the change you want to see in the world. But to be honest I dont know how much that will fix things.

Youre right, it cannot be instant.

Youre right, I was an E freak, But I was just starting out I didnt know there was a world outside the E borders.

Theory11 used to be that. Back when I first joined, under a different username in around 2006 or 2007, it was different. It really was. There was alot less bull on the forums.

But forums wont change the world. lol They can only do so much.

But at the same time, there has to be some solution that will hold weight.

Faust wrote:

Gandhi said to be the change you want to see in the world. But to be honest I dont know how much that will fix things.

Youre right, it cannot be instant.

Youre right, I was an E freak, But I was just starting out I didnt know there was a world outside the E borders.

Theory11 used to be that. Back when I first joined, under a different username in around 2006 or 2007, it was different. It really was. There was alot less bull on the forums.

But forums wont change the world. lol They can only do so much.

But at the same time, there has to be some solution that will hold weight.

Yeah I kind of wish I was there when it started. It seemed like such a new, fresh idea where everything would be changed for the better. I've been noticing a lot of crap infiltrating the forums fairly recently. It kind of crept up on us ya know?

I agree 100%. We can't get too worked up about a simple internet forum. In the end, it's just a bunch of people typing what ever they think and posting it online for everyone to see, much like you and I are doing now. lol

Yeah I hope there is a solution but I'm not seeing it right now. Maybe some other guys can chime in.

CardClip928 wrote:

Yeah I hope there is a solution but I'm not seeing it right now. Maybe some other guys can chime in.

I may be proud of this forum, but we are already making a small but significant improvement, sadly, I think its our obligation to redirect the newcomers(im still a newcomer) to the right path, I dont think that the internet is the problem, the real problem are the spoiled brats who want attention and the need to feel specia, and sadly, their egos deafens them and they just dont listen to the criticism that a lot of the time we try to give.Its not the internet, its the users.


How do we change it? sadly, there isnt much to be done, just wait and see if those guys can mature and actually start to really learn, off course that can be a little hard...

The internet is, and always will be, a double edged sword.

It offers myriads of possibilities for growth, and unfortunately, for digging your own grave.


We can't stop the internet. It's useless to cry over spilt milk. What I believe has to be done - and this is possibly the only way to really strengthen the community, is to use it to our advantage. How do you think the Bolshevik's gained support of the russian people? How do you think the Nazi's had such a strong base?

Joseph Goebells, the Nazi minister of propaganda, said "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it"

Propaganda. And I am not speaking about the cards.

The problem, is that when you type "magic" into Youtube - you see exactly what you don't want to.

The day you get live performances at the top of the Youtube page, will be the day you encourage more people into performing. There is a sort of 'virginity' in magic, where only after you have performed do you really understand where magic is going. So by getting more people into performing, you get more people understanding magic.

Honestly, this is not a problem with an easy solution, this is just what I've been thinking lately. Thoughts?


G

Some guy on T11...

Quote :

Talking about things doesn't make them done.
It just makes sure you don't fall on your face.
And really, DO WE NEED TO ADAVANCE THE ART RIGHT NOW?
No. We are doing good, change comes with the time, not time with change.
Ponder that, friends.

This guy is proving the point I was trying to make here. Magic is not fine where it is, it will never be fine where it is. Like Tally said on that thread, if this is all there is, I'm out.



-demon5

I think this is being looked at the wrong way. I don't think the art needs to advance, I think it needs to be brought backwards first. Some people are so worried about advancing themselves in this art form, that they're skipping over vital steps. No one wants to put time and practice into it any more. No one seems to want to script their performances, behond a verbal representation of what the people watching them are actually seeing. No one wants to put the work into it that made it so beautiful and appealing to them in the first place. And it doesn't help when something is being marketed as: "You'll be able to go out and perform this minutes after learning it!". I understand wanting to get magicians out performing for people, but at the cost of practicing? Some people see this as: "Yay, I can go perform this right away!" and when they get shit reactions because they haven't practiced it and screw the damn thing up, they down the effect instead.

When you look around yourself, and you're not happy with what you see, you don't move on. You stop, figure out what's wrong, work your ass off to fix it, and then move on.

As for actually going about fixing things, I believe it begins with each individual person making an effort to better themselves, and people with the correct knowledge helping those in need of it. However, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the first of the two to take place. You've a better chance of seeing a moose in times square wearing a shirt that reads: "I Miss Dick!".

Just my view of things.

We need to start looking at magic as an art form instead of an ego trip. The only way magic will advance in the peoples eye, is if we tel them that what we do is an art. then all of a sudden you aren't being heckled and people enjoy it more. For example, when you are going to perform tell them what we do is an art. People sit around and invent the things you see Angel or Blaine do on T.V. . Give this as an example. When a Pacaso exhibit is coming to your museum, your museum didn't create the artwork, they are just merely presenting it for you so you can enjoy it and have fun! don't keep the people in the dark, just like any creator in art there is one in magic. Give credit where it's due... it's a very hard pill to swallow, but once you tell them that people sit around and create these things you show them, suddenly the pressure is off of you and you're not being heckled because they know you didn't create it and they enjoy it so much more now that you level with them. I know no one is going to say " Daniel Garcia invented this effect where i blow up a balloon and put your phone in it." because it just doesn't feel right to you. That is because you have been selfish with magic for the longest time and don't want to give credit where it's due because you want to be in the spotlight. But if you explain it like I did and tell them that it truly is an art form, and you give that example of the museum.... you will be the better for it. You aren't paying attention to the fact that to better the art of magic you can't be secretive to the public, and after all, they are the ones who watch us perform. stop focusing on the trick, your presentation even to a degree isn't as important as what I told you. If you don't change your attitude, the public sure as hell won't.


- Zac